An Interview with Zanele Hlatshwayo and Ndivhuwo Masindi of the Women's Health Project
Paula Gabriela Freitas
Spring 2001

Ndivhuwo Masindi and Zanele Hlatshwayo

PF: What is WHP hoping to accomplish with the Sexual Rights Campaign?
ZH: We hope that South Africa will speak the language of sexual rights and use this new skill to fight HIV/AIDS and violence against women. The Sexual Rights Campaign promotes self-determination and body ownership. It also challenges cultural practices that promote gender inequality such as the notion that a husband owns his wife, particularly if he has paid LOBOLA - the bride price - for her. The principles promoted by the Campaign encourage women to negotiate for safer sex with their partners. It also encourages men to embrace women's rights without feeling threatened.

PF: You have been a Sexual Rights Campaign Trainer for almost two years. Do you think that the Campaign is meeting its goals?
NM: Yes. I see the change in people's attitudes when I hear that young women are not succumbing to their boyfriends' orders and instead declaring publicly, 'It's my body.' Not only are women becoming comfortable about speaking in public about safer sex, they are also speaking out against gender inequality.

PF: Health care workers and advocates in the US are very impressed with the Sexual Rights Campaign. What are the differences in how South Africans and the U.S. approach sexual rights?
ZH: Our process involves utilising different types of media such as electronic and print media to encourage public discussions and debates on sexual rights. The discussions often unpack the causes of the symptoms, so we are not stuck on the symptoms themselves. For example, we seek to understand why younger women are disproportionately affected by HIV as opposed to the other age groups, what is the cause of the imbalance. By unpacking the causes, we thus strive to deal with the root of the problem. I can't however comment on the American approach to Sexual Rights because I'm not familiar with the local approaches.

PF: What is the South African response to the Sexual Rights Campaign?
NM: People like to talk about safer sex and condoms. However, they become very defensive and reticent when we address topics like virginity testing and incest - issues that must be spoken about because many South Africans face these issues. For example, in some customary practices, traditionally the father or father-in-law "cleanses" the bride-to-be before her wedding day by having sex with her.

PF: Is sleeping with your father a common practice?
NM: People are challenging it. It is no longer being practiced as a traditional custom, it's seen as rape. Fathers are no longer saying 'You have to do this!' they now say 'Don't tell your mom.you're my special girl. If you tell your mom we will fight and separate.' This shows that society has become intolerant of such practices and most importantly, the perpetrators know that it is unacceptable behaviour and fear being found out.

PF: People shut down once you start to address these issues?
NM: Yes, especially married women who cannot imagine taking control of their own bodies. Women are told since childhood that they have to find a husband, obey, and provide sex for him. Most women don't see it as possible to take control of their bodies.

PF: Do you see it possible? Is it possible for a woman who is economically dependent on her husband, has children, will be beaten and most likely not have food if she does not do what her husband says?
NM: It's a big challenge, especially when women are economically dependent. But it is also difficult for women who are educated or better off because we live in a culture that values marriage and regard divorce as a failure. Our hope is that by involving men in debates about fighting diseases and other gender-based inequities, it will lead to a change in attitudes. Challenging gender equality is often seenas disrespectful. The Sexual Right Campaign explains that gender equality is not equated with disrespect. It is more like, you respect me and I respect you equally. We both have a say and therefore we have to talk about it and negotiate if need be.

PF: Have you heard of any women who took up the challenge to take control?
NM: A training participant shared with us her story of how she managed to leave her abusive husband. She had been adopted by pastors who emphasized that she should be a virgin until she was married. She got a very good dowry because she was a virgin, a good girl. From the first day her husband was very abusive, he called her names, beat her and at times pointed a gun at her. She pretended that everything was fine to protect her husband's career and family. One evening the husband brought home his girlfriend and they began to argue. As he went to fetch his gun, the eldest son called the mother into his bedroom and assisted her to jump through the window. She is now working at a crèche [day care center] and for the first time in her life she is happy. I like to tell this story to show how women go through a cycle of violence, but that there is always a way out.

PF: So it can be done?
NM: Yes, it can be done. People say that our courses and the Sexual rights Campaign training leads to divorces (laughter). The truth is that the campaign offers an alternative. It is not a common occurance for people to be in a meeting where they are encouraged to talk freely and challenge violence. It's during our trainings that people start to realize, 'I am not the one to take the blame. I don't have to face this all my life!' Our trainings don't talk about divorce at all, but people begin to see a different way from the one our communities promote. Our pastors always say BEKEZELA, persevere, persevere.

An old woman in our workshop cried and cried at one of our workshops when we read "I Got Flowers Today." This is a case study of a woman who would be given flowers after her husband beat her. She got her last flowers at her funeral after she had been beaten to death. Crying is very common in our workshops. The tearful woman at the workshop said, 'My daughter was married as a good child.' (She was the pride of the family because she was not pregnant nor had any children before her proper white wedding. When this type of marriage takes place the families are proud especially because teenage pregnancy is very high.) This women's daughter frequently went to her parents' home and said that the marriage was not working out. The parents, wanting to hold on to the family pride, always forced her to go back to the husband. One time the child said, 'You're forcing me to go back, this time I'm leaving and I'm leaving forever. I'll come back in a casket." A month later she did come back home in a casket. The woman said she is now talking about her experience in her home and church.

PF: Has the HIV/AIDS epidemic forced people to talk about other related issues that were being avoided?
NM: Yes, I believe HIV/AIDS in South Africa has been a median through which people are bringing to the open all these gender oppressive practices, but it is not the only reason. Because South Africa embraced human rights, women have stood up and said, 'It is not enough that we won the fight against racial oppression. There is another oppression that is very common in communities and that is gender oppression.'

PF: Often times we hear of the injustices committed by males in the South African context. Can you share with us an example of the extraordinary sons of South Africa?
NM: There is a very popular soap opera star who has become involved in gender equality. Through a play, he shows how the socialization of men leads to sexual abuse. From childhood, boys bottle up their emotions because they are not allowed outlets such as crying. Once they become older they take out their anger on the most vulnerable in society. This actor first became aware of this behavior when he began to think about his own abusive behaviour towards his girlfriend. He realized that his girlfriend's success threatened him and he reacted to his feelings of inferiority by beating her. Today he shares his own realization in the hope that it will make others think about their own abusive actions and attitudes.