A Conversation with Ahmed Kathrada
Nthabiseng Mabuza
Fall 1999

This system which was first implemented in 1948 by the Nationalist Party, was a body of laws that enforced the separation of different racial groups in South Africa, and legislated the superiority of whites. Under apartheid, South African coloured, Indian and black communities were stripped of their birth rights, and denied equality and freedom.

They could not vote and were considered second class citizens in their own country. Defiance to these inhumane laws resulted in death, torture, and imprisonment by the government. Many people went into exile.

Ahmed Kathrada is one of South Africa's prominent political leaders. In 1964, "Kathy," as he is affectionately known, was sentenced to life in prison with the likes of Nelson Mandela and Walter Sisulu. He served 26 years of his sentence, most of it on Robben Island, together with his colleagues.

In October, Kathy was in Boston as part of a national tour to promote his book, "Letters from Robben Island." I got a chance to meet, and talk to him. What I found was a man with great charm and an impeccable sense of humor. But mostly what I found was a man who, after all he had endured under a system that was set to degrade and dehumanize people, still maintained his sense of humanity, compassion, and a strong conviction of justice for all. When I was asked to do a personal interview with Kathy, I was elated. This is a man with great insights, and I will forever cherish the experience.

NM: You are one of the great political leaders in South Africa. When did you first become aware of the unjust laws in your country?
AK: Well, I was born in a country town and of course we grew up playing with kids of different races. When it came time for me to go to school I couldn't attend the same school with them [my friends]. I had to go 200 miles away to Johannesburg to attend an Indian school. I was eight years old when I left, so it was at a very young age that I became aware.

NM: The first time you got arrested for acts against the government, how old were you?
AK: It was in 1946 at the age of seventeen. There was a campaign against a land law which applied against the Indians only. The Indian Congress had identified a piece of ground which was reserved for whites and volunteers where called upon to occupy it and be arrested. I served a month in prison.

NM: Was there ever a time when you said to yourself; I'm not doing this anymore - the protesting and going to jail?
AK: No, on the contrary. When you are young you are very arrogant and you start thinking that nothing is going to happen without you, so you have an exaggerated view of your own importance and tell yourself that studies can wait, the struggle is the main thing. So I chucked up studies without completing matric (high school) at that time. I later wrote my matric after a 19 year break.

NM: Your political path ultimately led you to meet and work closely with other great leaders of South Africa such as Govan Mbeki, Walter Sisulu and Nelson Mandela. You were the baby of the group. How was it working with them?
AK: One great thing about these people is they never took into account the difference in age. They were not condescending or patronizing. They treated young people as equals and that helped a great deal. It was a very comfortable relationship between us.

NM: You all worked under harsh conditions. At times you were placed under house arrests, banned, and had to work underground. How frustrating was that?
AK: House arrest was worse in that I was staying alone. I couldn't have visitors, even my mother couldn't visit me for the law did not allow me to have any visitors. Bannings are frustrating. Of course we got passed that, but one had to be very careful because we continued our political activities even under banning orders. I did get arrested several times for breaking my orders.

NM: In 1963 you were one of the political activists arrested and charged with acts of sabotage along with Nelson Mandela and six other activists in what came to be known as the Rivonia Trial. Can you even begin to explain the emotions that ran through you when the judge came back with a sentence of life in prison?
AK: There was a collective feeling of relief, because right from the word go it was drummed into our heads by the police, and later on, by our own lawyers that there was a very strong chance of a death sentence. So when the judge pronounced life, it was a sigh of relief that we were going to live.

NM: Tell me about Robben Island. How were the prison conditions?
AK: Prison itself is a very harsh place. It also depends on your state of mind. If you go in with a negative state of mind prison can be hell, but we were all freedom fighters. We knew that sooner or later we were going to be arrested so we were positive in our outlook and you try your best to adjust to it [prison] in a positive way. You don't accept humiliation or indignity of any sort. In that sense you educate your guards. You humanize them because they've been brought up with one thing in mind, and that is to crush the morale and the spirit of the prisoners and you have to see to it that they don't succeed.

NM: Being a South African Indian, were you treated any differently from the black political prisoners and fellow comrades?
AK: Yes. The laws of the time stipulated different treatment for whites, coloureds, Indians, and Africans. Africans were always at the bottom of the ladder inside and outside of prison. In prison itself I had better clothing than my colleagues. There was that discrimination with food as well. So we had to struggle against discrimination right from the start until we succeeded. But it took a long time.

NM: How does one do life? What does that do to one's spirit and soul?
AK: Again, you know you are in there for a cause which you are aware of. You're always aware that while you're fighting the same struggle on a different terrain, your colleagues are having it worse --tortured to death, shot in confrontations with the enemy, killed by letter and parcel bombs, harassed, banned. So you feel you're a bit better off. Then of course there is the knowledge that the enemy has not succeeded in crushing the movement, and international solidarity is growing. All that helped to keep up our morale.

NM: Is that how you were able to maintain your strength and ongoing determination, and not be consumed by anger or bitterness?
AK: Yes. You know, bitterness, anger, hatred, these are all negative. Ours was a struggle looking for the future and the future meant reconciliation and forgiveness towards building a new country.

NM: Plenty of our people, those who stayed in the country to fight the struggle, or those who left to fight in exile - not to mention the international community - contributed to the eventual abolishment of apartheid. Political prisoners were released, exiles could return home, and in 1994, for the first time in our country's history, South Africa held its first non-racial, democratic elections. Did you ever think that you would live to see that happen?
AK: In prison you never lost hope. We knew that we were going to win one day but we never thought that we would sit in parliament ourselves or that Mandela would be president. That never crossed our minds but we definitely knew we were going to win one day.

NM: Apartheid left deep rooted scars on our people. You are now chairperson of the Robben Island Museum. How do you feel the past can work as a tool, not only to learn from, but also to heal those wounds?
AK: The past can never be forgotten. It's something we must always remember and see to it that it never happens again. So that message must reach every visitor on Robben Island. But the more important message is that of the future and that message would be of reconciliation and of victory. Suffering and hardship were all part of that struggle. The other message should be that, in the face of injustice and inhumanity, the human spirit always triumphs

NM: I am in my 20's. Living in America, I learned what the African-Americans went through during the civil rights movement. Today, as I look at the African-American youth, I notice how far removed they are from politics, especially by not exercising their right to vote. What advice would you give my generation in South Africa that might prevent us from falling into the same pattern that our American brothers and sisters have fallen into?
AK: You must participate. The only way you can make an impact on policies of the country, on the laws of the country is by participating. Parliament and its committees are now, for the first time, open to the public and they can make their voices heard. It would be criminal if young people now abstain from participating because it is their future and the future of their children and generations to come. We have won freedom but we have a long way to go. We cannot go that long way unless the youth participate. And that would be our most important message.

Nthabiseng Mabuza is a writer and occasional volunteer at South Africa Partners. We are grateful for the time and energy she devoted to posting this interview on our website.

Letters from Robben Island: A Selection of Ahmed Kathrada's Prison Correspondence is available through Michigan State University Press.